Transcript for the Math Jam "MOEMS Teachers Math Jam" on Nov 17.

Math Jam hosted by RichKal-MOEMS (Richard Kalman ).

rrusczyk (19:29:49)
Greetings and welcome to another MOEMS Math Jam.

rrusczyk (19:29:54)
MOEMS is an outstanding way for students in grades 4-8 to get started with problem solving mathematics. Therefore, we have invited the people from MOEMS to host Math Jams to discuss how to use MOEMS to inspire students to tackle challenging problems.

rrusczyk (19:29:58)
For those of you who have showed up to see what AoPS classes are like, please view transcripts of other Math Jams from the past:

rrusczyk (19:30:01)
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Community/AoPS_Y_MJ_Transcripts.php

rrusczyk (19:30:06)
Today's Math Jam will be considerably different than AoPS classes, as it is both for a program that focuses on an earlier age than most of our classes, and because it is aimed at teachers involved with MOEMS, instead of being aimed more at students.

rrusczyk (19:30:10)
Now, on with the show!

rrusczyk (19:30:15)
I'll now turn things over to your instructor for today, Richard Kalman.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:30:23)
Welcome to the Math Olympiads Math Jam. I am Richard Kalman, the Executive Director of MOEMS. The Olympiad schedule set the first contest for this week. This Math Jam is intended to answer any post-contest questions you may have, whether mathematical or administrative.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:30:33)
The next Jam is set for next Tuesday at 7:30 PM Eastern Time. It will focus on problem solving.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:31:00)
Do you have any questions about running your team, doing the (electronic) paperwork, or a contest problem?

Fran Rund (19:31:28)
I was unable to download the contest.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:31:49)
Exactly what happened?

Fran Rund (19:32:16)
I logged in and clicked on contest, but nothing appeared.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:32:56)
You reached the Practice and Contest Problems page?

Fran Rund (19:33:08)
Yes.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:33:39)
Did the new window fail to open or did it open blank?

RichKal-MOEMS (19:34:09)
That is, the Adobe Reader window.

Fran Rund (19:33:50)
Failed to open.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:34:53)
So you only got the message that a window opened, but no window.

Fran Rund (19:34:30)
Yes, I even downloaded Adobe again.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:35:40)
I am told there are some issues with Macs sometimes. Is your machine a Mac?

Fran Rund (19:35:48)
No.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:36:37)
What browser do you have, and which version?

Fran Rund (19:37:12)
Sorry, I'm basically computer illiterate.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:38:40)
OK. Ask your schools tech support person to check the settings on that computer or try another machine.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:38:59)
BTW, if no contest appears, contact us fast and we will email the contest to you as an attachment.

Fran Rund (19:39:06)
O.K.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:39:26)
Did you get the contest through another means?

Fran Rund (19:39:37)
No.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:40:24)
What is your Team ID? I'll send it to yu as soon as we finish.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:40:36)
That is, YOU.

Fran Rund (19:40:34)
7910

RichKal-MOEMS (19:41:20)
Thanks. I just made a note.

Fran Rund (19:41:35)
Thank you.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:42:34)
Now, Please check your computer out ASAP so the problem doesn't happen again. Let me know what happens.

mathmom (19:42:19)
hi, I have a question, I hope no one has already asked since I just got here.... This is my second year as a PICO but I just noticed today that the proctoring instructions state that the proctor is supposed to read the questions aloud. My question is, do I do that with time running, or do I start time when I'm done reading?

RichKal-MOEMS (19:43:16)
You read aloud and then start the clock.

mathmom (19:43:30)
Is that new, or did I just miss it totally last year?

RichKal-MOEMS (19:43:56)
(I do suspect many people never noticed that step.)

RichKal-MOEMS (19:44:20)
That rule has been in effect for 26 years.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:44:43)
But it may be buried in "the fine print".

mathmom (19:44:36)
oops

RichKal-MOEMS (19:45:38)
No biggie. But it does help even the playing field for those whose reading skills are not up to their math abilities.

mathmom (19:45:55)
Right. It's actually interesting, because I have one kid participating this year (E Level) who might have trouble reading the questions, so I was going to tell him that it would be ok for me to help him read the problem, but not tell him what anything means etc.... then I noticed that I was supposed to read the whole thing aloud anyhow.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:46:43)
Great! He'd thank you if he realized.

mathmom (19:46:55)
:)

mathmom (19:48:17)
am I allowed to ask yet if this year's E-level olympiad #1 seemed especially hard to anyone else? My kids and I all thought so.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:49:33)
During the contests we ask that no one discuss the actual questions in our Forums, for fear of revealing something to a kid who hasn't taken the Olympiad yet.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:50:19)
Fran, Andy, Piper, MathMom, Dmorris: are you all PICOs?

Fran Rund (19:50:38)
Yes.

mathmom (19:50:39)
(I am, yes)

andypoulsen (19:51:29)
yup

RichKal-MOEMS (19:52:28)
Piperpgrace? dmorris? Are you still in the room? Are you PICOs (coaches)?

dmorris44 (19:52:50)
I don't know. I just got an email today to do this. First I had to register so I got in late. Still here

RichKal-MOEMS (19:53:32)
Are you running a team for MOEMS (the Math Olympiads)?

RichKal-MOEMS (19:54:23)
Are you a teacher or a student?

piperpgrace (19:54:22)
i'm doing my homework right now.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:54:53)
Piperpgrace, Are you a student?

dmorris44 (19:54:38)
I just gave the M version of Math Olympiad to my 7th grade Pre-Algebra class.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:55:49)
You're a PICO, dm. PICO = Person in Charge of the Olympiads.

piperpgrace (19:55:05)
yes

piperpgrace (19:54:59)
yes

piperpgrace (19:56:23)
i'm a student

RichKal-MOEMS (19:57:33)
Piperpgrace, do you participate in the Math Olympiads? If so, did you take the contest yet?

dmorris44 (19:56:50)
I'm not in charge. There is a math department head and a math faciliator that are always telling me what to do. (Just kidding)

piperpgrace (19:57:45)
no

RichKal-MOEMS (19:58:29)
No to which question. Please explain.

piperpgrace (19:58:47)
i'm not in Math Olymiads.

RichKal-MOEMS (19:59:50)
Ok. Is it safe to say you can't give away anything about our first contest to those who will take it?

RichKal-MOEMS (20:03:00)
OK. Now we can go over the contest.

mathmom (19:58:46)
sorry richard, didn't realize I was starting something so complicated!

RichKal-MOEMS (20:03:49)
That's OK. We need to be careful for a while about the problems.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:04:39)
We were startled by the apparently low levels on the first contest.

mathmom (20:04:13)
i didn't necessarily want to discuss details of the problems, just overall impressions

RichKal-MOEMS (20:05:00)
I understood.

mathmom (20:04:36)
as in, did kids tend to score more poorly than their coaches expected? (mine did, even the returning ones)

RichKal-MOEMS (20:05:35)
I can't speak for the coaches, but I was dismayed by the results.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:06:17)
Normally we try to get the total of the 5 percents correct to be about 200% on the first contest.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:06:43)
That translates to about 2 points per student on average.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:07:12)
Today's E results showed only about 146%

mathmom (20:06:16)
I'm glad to hear that (that it wasn't only us)

dmorris44 (19:55:46)
I took the test with each of my two classes and I missed the same problem both times.

dmorris44 (20:06:38)
I carefully solved the problems and still missed the same one twice! That's all I'll say about the test. Most of my students didn't do very well. There was no opportunity to coach them. None of them had every done MO before.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:08:55)
Lack of practice doesn't help. That's why we advise people to fit a few practices in before contest one.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:09:39)
It helps kids know what to expect, a bit more, and to start to catch the feel of problem solving.

mathmom (20:07:59)
Was that the M-level dmorris?

andypoulsen (20:08:04)
dmorris -- was that problem D?

dmorris44 (20:10:27)
Our school is new at this. Administration added several new requirements this year and many of us are struggling to keep up.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:12:20)
dmorris did Division M. The percents there were (in order) 51, 32, 20, 31, and 43 (%).

dmorris44 (20:11:31)
I don't understand M-level. The problem was C.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:13:11)
Problem C was tough. 20% confirms that.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:14:16)
It was a pure reasoning problem. The trick was in enumerating the three sets.

dmorris44 (20:13:49)
How do you already have data on the test?

RichKal-MOEMS (20:15:12)
As teachers grade them and enter the scores online, the computer automatically compiles stats instantaneously.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:15:46)
Look Under the menu item Statistics at the top of the screen.

mathmom (20:15:06)
C was tricky, but easy once you "got it".

RichKal-MOEMS (20:16:22)
Yeah. I got it wrong today after understanding it thoroughly last spring.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:16:55)
I didn't see the statement about 45% today, at first.

mathmom (20:15:25)
what are the percents for E-level so far?

RichKal-MOEMS (20:17:53)
In order 67, 13, 41, 05,21(%).

RichKal-MOEMS (20:18:27)
The 67% is exactly what we want for 1A, to get the kids started.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:18:55)
But the 13% for 1B. Not at all what we want.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:19:38)
and the 5% on 1D: Not until later in the year should it happen.

dmorris44 (20:16:27)
I gotta ask my math facilatator if she knows that. No one has told me to do that. Thanks for the info.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:19:55)
You're welcome.

andypoulsen (20:17:29)
On the Div E test, problem D was the toughest for our kids.... (but, also, easy once you "got it" )

RichKal-MOEMS (20:20:29)
Another pure thinking problem.

mathmom (20:19:39)
I will tell you 1B was hard for most of my students because the wording was obscure. They had a hard time figuring out what the question meant.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:20:52)
Good comment.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:21:39)
Perhaps 1B should have appeared on a later test, or perhaps been all words

andypoulsen (20:07:25)
As did mine (though this is my first year). I only had 20 kids on my team, so I couldn't get much in the way of stats, but we had no perfect scores, 1 scored 4, 2 scored 3, 5 scored 2, 8 scored 1, and 4 scored 0....

andypoulsen (20:20:59)
Ours, too -- there was a lot of confusion...

RichKal-MOEMS (20:22:02)
Andy - Division E?

andypoulsen (20:22:07)
yes

RichKal-MOEMS (20:22:35)
Again, my apologies to you all for Division E.

dmorris44 (20:22:24)
Is mathmom talking about problem c at Division M? I've read the strategy and still don't "get it"

mathmom (20:22:51)
I told them already I thought it was harder than usual and not to get discouraged

RichKal-MOEMS (20:23:46)
Always wise advice, MathMom.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:24:56)
Andy, Are you talking about the addition problem with CD6E?

andypoulsen (20:23:47)
I'd love to see this Problem C for Division M! (but we've only got an "E" team!)

RichKal-MOEMS (20:25:52)
Oops- his comment should come before my answr!

andypoulsen (20:25:59)
no -- the big confusion was on the "whole number" problem (1B).

RichKal-MOEMS (20:26:36)
Now that is more suited for Division M.

andypoulsen (20:26:22)
from looking at our kids answers, it appeared that many of the kids didn't read the questions carefully, and either solved the problem they *thought* the question was asking, or didn't complete it.

andypoulsen (20:26:38)
oops, should be kids' answers...

RichKal-MOEMS (20:27:43)
Reading carefully is one of the things we ALL must work on with kids.

andypoulsen (20:27:33)
(and we even told them right before the test "Read each question carefully!" ) live and learn, I guess -- too many of the kids seemed to think it was a race...

RichKal-MOEMS (20:28:05)
Was the time inadequate?

mathmom (20:28:39)
the time seemed fine to me -- my kids finished (gave up) before time ran out

mathmom (20:28:22)
Andy, I was dying while proctoring watching one boy trying to solve E-1C as a multiplication problem rather than an addition problem. Things that kill proctors... :

RichKal-MOEMS (20:30:04)
Problem authors always love "good" problems, which usually means hard, hard, hard!

RichKal-MOEMS (20:31:17)
I try to apply brakes to our authors and we use a 10-teacher panel, half of which work on the elementary level to choose and polish the problems.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:31:47)
Was the time insufficient?

andypoulsen (20:30:37)
not at all, I think -- by halfway through, more than half of our kids had left (and we even told them they had more time if they wanted it). The funny (well, not really funny, but interesting) thing was that the first ones done seemed to feel confident, and almost universally did very poorly, though the last 3 done we had our top scorer and two kids with 1's... it was just strange that the kids seemed to think they "got it" when they were so far off...

dmorris44 (20:30:14)
All my student finished before time expired. (agree with mathmom's comment--"gave up")

andypoulsen (20:32:03)
Mathmom: OUCH! that must have been a painful experience! we had some similar, but not *that* bad! :)

andypoulsen (20:31:11)
one of the things I've really tried to emphasize is "does the answer make sense?" -- and in many cases, their answers didn't, but they didn't seem to realize it...

mathmom (20:22:58)
They'll be happy to hear official confirmation that that was so

andypoulsen (20:33:28)
(and one kid wrote on the top of the test "I didn't get eney of these!" (mispelling kept intact...) ) yikes!

RichKal-MOEMS (20:34:02)
The kid spels wel.

dmorris44 (20:34:17)
Concur with Andy's comment. In Texas we have a "TAKS" test annually and when my kids say it was easy, I cringe.

andypoulsen (20:34:20)
:) yup! (but wasn't one of the zeros we had!)

mathmom (20:34:30)
Andy, the "checking if it makes sense" is really hard to get into them -- curious, do they get to use calculators in math class? that seems to make it worse in my experience

RichKal-MOEMS (20:36:30)
BTW, when you leave, please click the "LEAVE" button so I know who's still here.

RichKal-MOEMS (20:36:37)
Someone earlier had asked for another explanation of one of the problems. Which was it?

RichKal-MOEMS (20:37:10)
Now about checking...

andypoulsen (20:36:42)
I don't think most of them do (at least most of the time). I agree that it's a hard skill for kids to understand (of course, I saw the same thing in engineering school where students would give absolutely impossible answers to problems and not see why it was ridiculous...) one of my profs called it "physical calibration" -- are you in touch with what they numbers mean....

RichKal-MOEMS (20:37:34)
Cute phrase!

mathmom (20:37:41)
i went on a calculator rampage at our school after a bunch of kids put down 80% on a *really* easy percent question whose answer was 8% (it was 8 out of 100) -- this was 6th and 7th graders

RichKal-MOEMS (20:38:53)
The hardest thing to teach about calcluators, I think, is when not to use them.

andypoulsen (20:39:07)
well, it's like the story back when calculators were still pretty new -- the kids would do the problem by hand and check it with a calculator, and the older folks would do the problem with a calculator and then check it by hand!

mathmom (20:39:12)
I'm not a teacher, I'm a mom (hence the username) but I was able to convince their regular math teacher that they were losing their natural numeric sense by overusing calculators

RichKal-MOEMS (20:40:22)
This session is for the MOEMS teachers. Please go to www.moems.org to see.

andypoulsen (20:40:02)
I always try to encourage the kids to eststimate what they *think* the answer will be so they can check to see if they're in the ballpark... (though that doesn't always work...)

mathmom (20:40:32)
thanks Rich!

andypoulsen (20:41:19)
see ya -- gotta get going!

RichKal-MOEMS (20:42:01)
Thank you all for coming. Good night. The next Jam is set for next Tuesday at 7:30 PM Eastern Time. It will focus on problem solving.

dmorris44 (20:41:41)
This is my first ever chat type experience. I think it could become an addiction so I'm outta here with papers to grade, grades to enter, lessons to prepare, parents that I should call but probably won't and etc, etc, etc.

andypoulsen (20:42:09)
Rich -- any chance to get M-level test 1? I'd like to try it on my son!

RichKal-MOEMS (20:42:59)
Email the office. I'll ask Dot to send it.