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hxtung
Riemann Hypothesis
Offline Joined: 26 Jul 2003 Posts: 323
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Perron's criterion for irreducibility of polynomials
Let be a polynomial with integer coefficients such that is non-zero.
If , then prove that is irreducible in .
Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:12 am
grobber
Birch & Swinnerton Dyer
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[Moderator edit: This post referred to a wrong version of the problem, where instead of the condition was (incorrectly) written .]
I think something is wrong here:
If we put n=3, a2=0, a1=2 then a1>1+|a2| because a2=an-1 but then we can take any a3 that we want, so if we have a3=-1 then the plymiomial=
x^3+2x^2-1=(x+1)*(x^2+x-1) so the problem is wrong. This is because we can choose any an that we want.
Maybe it's like this:a1>1+|a2|+..+|a(n-1)|+|an|. What do you think?
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:00 am
hxtung
Riemann Hypothesis
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Sorry!
thank grobber
Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:16 am
Lagrangia
Navier-Stokes Equations
Offline Joined: 29 Mar 2003 Posts: 1336 Location: Campulung-Muscel, RO
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SO how is the problem then?
_________________ As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:19 am
Namdung
Yang-Mills Theory
Offline Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 564 Location: Hochiminh city - Vietnam
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Hi all,
I will correct this problem (posted by hxtung):
P(x) is polynomial with integer coefficients, an is non zero
P(x) = x^n + a_1x^(n-1) + ...+ a_(n-1)x + a_n.
If |a1| > 1 + |a_2| + ... +|a_n|,
prove that P(x) is irreducible over Z[x]
It's well-known Perron critery. We also can show that if |a1| = 1 + |a_2| + ... +|a_n| and f( \pm 1) <> 0 then P(x) is irreducible over Z[x].
I have the proof of this theorem, but it is not very elementary (using Rushe theorem). Anyone can find elementary solution?
Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:08 am
fmathurin
P versus NP
Offline Joined: 18 Jan 2005 Posts: 30
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Namdung wrote:
Hi all,
I will correct this problem (posted by hxtung):
P(x) is polynomial with integer coefficients, an is non zero
P(x) = x^n + a_1x^(n-1) + ...+ a_(n-1)x + a_n.
If |a1| > 1 + |a_2| + ... +|a_n|,
prove that P(x) is irreducible over Z[x]
It's well-known Perron critery. We also can show that if |a1| = 1 + |a_2| + ... +|a_n| and f( \pm 1) <> 0 then P(x) is irreducible over Z[x].
I have the proof of this theorem, but it is not very elementary (using Rushe theorem). Anyone can find elementary solution?
Could you please tell us more about Perron's criterion ?
I hardly see the link between the inequality
and the irreducibility of . How do you prove the unsolvability
of the galois group of (I mean )
where is the decomposition field of .
Is the fact that relevant ?
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:01 pm
vess
Yang-Mills Theory
Offline Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 724 Location: Cambridge, MA
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fmathurin wrote:
I hardly see the link between the inequality
and the irreducibility of .
The link is pretty simple: if the inequality holds, then the polynomial has exactly one root outside the unit circle, and such a polynomial is obviously irreducible.
Namdung, the correct spelling is 'Rouche's theorem.' (those who hear it for the first time can Google it). It is a standard result in complex analysis stating that if are two polynomials and is a simple closed curve in the plane such that for all , then the polynomials and have the same number of roots (counted with their multiplicities) inside . For this problem, the assumed inequality allows us to apply Rouche's theorem in the special case when is the unit circle to conclude that all but exactly one root of lie strictly inside the unit circle. Another immediate corollary of Rouche's theorem is the fundamental theorem of algebra (and in fact the stronger statement that if , then the disc contains precisely roots of ).
--Vesselin
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:21 pm
pengshi
Poincare Conjecture
Offline Joined: 28 Apr 2004 Posts: 127 Location: Toronto
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[quote="vess"]
fmathurin wrote:
For this problem, the assumed inequality allows us to apply Rouche's theorem in the special case when is the unit circle to conclude that all but exactly one root of lie strictly inside the unit circle. Another immediate corollary of Rouche's theorem is the fundamental theorem of algebra (and in fact the stronger statement that if , then the disc contains precisely roots of ).
--Vesselin
Sorry, but I'm really lost here. Can you please elaborate on how you prove perron's criterion with rouche's theorem? What are your choices of f, and g, for example. Your help would be deeply appreciated.
_________________ ...and the rest follows by induction.
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:01 pm
Myth
Birch & Swinnerton Dyer
Offline Joined: 02 Sep 2003 Posts: 4490 Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
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Indeed, it is a well know result.
Consider and . Then for all with , and in the same time if . So for all on the unit circle.
Due to Rouche's theorem we conclude and have the same number of complex roots inside the unit circle. But has exactly roots there. It follows that has exactly 1 root outside of .
Suppose that is a reducable polynomial. Then , there . And we know . But each such polynomial has at least one root outside of (otherwise integer nonzero is a product of complex numbers, where each numbers is less than 1 in magnitude). Therefore, has at least two roots outside of . Contradiction.
_________________ Myth is out of here
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:31 pm
Myth
Birch & Swinnerton Dyer
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Valentin said me some time ago that he knows a proof without use of complex analysis (Rouche's theorem).
_________________ Myth is out of here
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:36 pm
vess
Yang-Mills Theory
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A proof that has precisely roots inside the unit circle without complex analysis ??!!!??
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:20 pm
Myth
Birch & Swinnerton Dyer
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A proof that is irreducible.
_________________ Myth is out of here
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:23 pm
Valentin Vornicu
Admin
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vess wrote:
A proof that has precisely roots inside the unit circle without complex analysis ??!!!??
Yes. Why is that so hard to belive?
_________________ We all use math everyday: to forecast weather, to tell time, to handle money; we also use math to analyze crime, reveal patterns, predict behavior. Using numbers we can solve the biggest mysteries we know.
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:56 pm
Valentin Vornicu
Admin
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Laurenţiu Panaitopol
So, let's take , , such that .
We can obviously suppose that because otherwise we just extract the largest type factor we can find out of . Let's first prove that there is no root of with absolute value .
We have that thus
and because it follows that which is a contradiction.
Let's denote with , , , be the roots of . Because it follows that at least one of the roots is larger than 1 in absolute value.
Let and let polynomial with roots , , , . We have that
It follows that , for all , , and , therefore the condition in the statement becomes
But as it follows that
Suppose now that there exists an such that . As we have
which is a contradiction with (*). Because it follows that , and as was chosen arbitrarily, all , , , are smaller than 1 in absolute value.
No complex analysis whatsoever. Vess I'd expect you of all people never to say never in mathematics
_________________ We all use math everyday: to forecast weather, to tell time, to handle money; we also use math to analyze crime, reveal patterns, predict behavior. Using numbers we can solve the biggest mysteries we know.
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:01 pm
vess
Yang-Mills Theory
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Valentin Vornicu wrote:
No complex analysis whatsoever. Vess I'd expect you of all people never to say never in mathematics
You're right --- never say 'never.'
Does this solution belong to Laurentiu Panaitopol? It's very beautiful.
--Vesselin
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:12 pm
grobber
Birch & Swinnerton Dyer
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There are also non-elementary but interesting ways of avoiding complex analysis, I think.
It's easier for me to write it as , with .
First we show, just as Valentint did, that there are no roots on the unit circle. Then, we construct the homotopy . We have . The important thing here is to notice that, just like we showed that there are no roots on the unit circle for , we can show that there are no roots on the unit circle for , for any . This means that it makes sense to talk about (here is the unit circle). Since the order of a curve wrt a point does not change with a homotopy if the curve does not cross that point during the process, it means that has the same order as (remember that takes values on the unit circle) wrt the origin of the plane, and this order must then be .
However, there is a theorem stating that the number of roots inside the unit disk for a polynomial with no roots on the unit disk is precisely the order of defined as above wrt the origin (this isn't hard to show either).
P.S. I really hope there are no mistakes. You see, I'm a newbie in the field, so be forgiving
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:37 pm
vess
Yang-Mills Theory
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This, in essense, immitates the proof of Rouche's theorem, so it's basically the same idea.
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:45 pm
grobber
Birch & Swinnerton Dyer
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I can see that, but there's still no complex analysis involved .
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:50 pm
Valentin Vornicu
Admin
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vess wrote:
Does this solution belong to Laurentiu Panaitopol? It's very beautiful.
--Vesselin
Yes, it does.
_________________ We all use math everyday: to forecast weather, to tell time, to handle money; we also use math to analyze crime, reveal patterns, predict behavior. Using numbers we can solve the biggest mysteries we know.
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:48 pm
spx2
Yang-Mills Theory
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about the solution
i did not quite understand it,what am i supposed to do?
Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:43 pm
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